Comments on: Arguments, Disgust, Reason, and Remedy http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/05/10/arguments-disgust-reason-and-remedy/ Revitalizing Riddles, Mythic Story, Family, Village and Land. Fri, 18 May 2012 02:38:40 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.2 By: Mike Rock http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/05/10/arguments-disgust-reason-and-remedy/#comment-23853 Mike Rock Mon, 12 May 2008 01:08:06 +0000 http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/05/10/arguments-disgust-reason-and-remedy/#comment-23853 I have to quote this again because it really stood out for me too: "If you live a good life, people in search of a good life will flock to it. If you argue for a good life, people in search of an argument about what makes a good life will flock to it." Willem this is my quote of the week, this is wow. I have to quote this again because it really stood out for me too:

“If you live a good life, people in search of a good life will flock to it. If you argue for a good life, people in search of an argument about what makes a good life will flock to it.”

Willem this is my quote of the week, this is wow.

]]> By: Eric Neighbor Scout http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/05/10/arguments-disgust-reason-and-remedy/#comment-23849 Eric Neighbor Scout Sun, 11 May 2008 20:53:33 +0000 http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/05/10/arguments-disgust-reason-and-remedy/#comment-23849 "Furthermore, sane and life-affirming choice needs no logical support - you can feel the evidence with your body’s senses. Only abstractions need logical support. The more removed the abstraction, the more support needed. Awe...I like this. Thank you for going ahead and posting this post. What clarity this just added to my pot and gave me. Thank you. :) “Furthermore, sane and life-affirming choice needs no logical support - you can feel the evidence with your body’s senses. Only abstractions need logical support. The more removed the abstraction, the more support needed.

Awe…I like this. Thank you for going ahead and posting this post. What clarity this just added to my pot and gave me. Thank you. :)

]]> By: Billy Metcalf http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/05/10/arguments-disgust-reason-and-remedy/#comment-23847 Billy Metcalf Sun, 11 May 2008 14:37:35 +0000 http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/05/10/arguments-disgust-reason-and-remedy/#comment-23847 PS, this is a great discussion Willem. Thank you very much for this one. I'm just really thrilled about what you've been putting out there for us in the last little while. PS, this is a great discussion Willem. Thank you very much for this one. I’m just really thrilled about what you’ve been putting out there for us in the last little while.

]]> By: Billy Metcalf http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/05/10/arguments-disgust-reason-and-remedy/#comment-23846 Billy Metcalf Sun, 11 May 2008 14:32:58 +0000 http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/05/10/arguments-disgust-reason-and-remedy/#comment-23846 Yes, I meant all of us as the addicts. It's the same with any addicts I think. Lifelines may have been cast out all around us, but many of us will wait till we are going under to reach out for one. So when they see that I'm not taking the lifeline when they throw it out, should they just reel it back in and sail away? I hope not. Above, I said the part of me that tends toward the harder line. I'm working on a more compassionate side in recent years. I have opted out to an extent that not a lot of people have, now I've bought back in, selectively, in ways that I have chosen, so that I can do the work I have to do. In that process, I've gotten hooked into things like staying up late, watching videos and posting on internet forums :-) The lifelines that work for addicts, like AA and treatment centers and counseling, all depend on the addict seeking them out and being ready. The proactive part is creating awareness of their existence. Yes, I meant all of us as the addicts. It’s the same with any addicts I think. Lifelines may have been cast out all around us, but many of us will wait till we are going under to reach out for one. So when they see that I’m not taking the lifeline when they throw it out, should they just reel it back in and sail away? I hope not.
Above, I said the part of me that tends toward the harder line.
I’m working on a more compassionate side in recent years. I have opted out to an extent that not a lot of people have, now I’ve bought back in, selectively, in ways that I have chosen, so that I can do the work I have to do. In that process, I’ve gotten hooked into things like staying up late, watching videos and posting on internet forums :-)
The lifelines that work for addicts, like AA and treatment centers and counseling, all depend on the addict seeking them out and being ready. The proactive part is creating awareness of their existence.

]]> By: Willem http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/05/10/arguments-disgust-reason-and-remedy/#comment-23841 Willem Sun, 11 May 2008 07:50:01 +0000 http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/05/10/arguments-disgust-reason-and-remedy/#comment-23841 Billy, do you think that some "ignorant by choice" folks could use some help to cross that line, someone to hold their hand as they abandon their old world? I wonder if some folks just don't have the "courage" to do it alone, and the words of a voice speaking with authority in a familiar language (such as Jason's) help them to take those crucial steps. I agree, really, that readiness plays the biggest part in all of this. I don't even bother talking to folks still enjoying civilization (about these issues, I mean). Why do they need me? To rain on their parade? But for folks casting about, unclear on why they feel so miserable, I feel like I can offer one route to address their need for help. I don't know whether your "dealing with addicts here" comment applies to your current job, or to members of civilization, but I'll assume the double meaning as intended. It really strikes to the heart of the situation. I continue to cast off a variety of addictions related to my history with civilization, ways I use to dull and cope with my remaining relationship with civ. Billy, do you think that some “ignorant by choice” folks could use some help to cross that line, someone to hold their hand as they abandon their old world? I wonder if some folks just don’t have the “courage” to do it alone, and the words of a voice speaking with authority in a familiar language (such as Jason’s) help them to take those crucial steps.

I agree, really, that readiness plays the biggest part in all of this. I don’t even bother talking to folks still enjoying civilization (about these issues, I mean). Why do they need me? To rain on their parade? But for folks casting about, unclear on why they feel so miserable, I feel like I can offer one route to address their need for help.

I don’t know whether your “dealing with addicts here” comment applies to your current job, or to members of civilization, but I’ll assume the double meaning as intended. It really strikes to the heart of the situation. I continue to cast off a variety of addictions related to my history with civilization, ways I use to dull and cope with my remaining relationship with civ.

]]> By: Billy Metcalf http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/05/10/arguments-disgust-reason-and-remedy/#comment-23840 Billy Metcalf Sun, 11 May 2008 07:04:03 +0000 http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/05/10/arguments-disgust-reason-and-remedy/#comment-23840 A thought about this from the side of me that tends more towards a harder line. We are dealing with addicts here. The information is there for people to make decisions. When they get to a point where they are ready (rock bottom?) they will come. I can't make them do anything they aren't ready to do. I think any university educated person that is "buying in" is making a concious decision to do that. If ignorance means they are ignoring what is all around them, then yeah they're ignorant,,, by choice. I'm working with some teens now. These are the ones who are falling through the cracks in society's floor. The kids I'm working with and their families have never seen anything like the "good life" that mainstream society has to offer. Their ideas of alternative lifestyles involve alcohol, drugs and violence and likely jail. I want to help them see that there are other options besides what's avaiable to them from the trickle down. A thought about this from the side of me that tends more towards a harder line.

We are dealing with addicts here. The information is there for people to make decisions. When they get to a point where they are ready (rock bottom?) they will come. I can’t make them do anything they aren’t ready to do. I think any university educated person that is “buying in” is making a concious decision to do that. If ignorance means they are ignoring what is all around them, then yeah they’re ignorant,,, by choice.

I’m working with some teens now. These are the ones who are falling through the cracks in society’s floor. The kids I’m working with and their families have never seen anything like the “good life” that mainstream society has to offer. Their ideas of alternative lifestyles involve alcohol, drugs and violence and likely jail. I want to help them see that there are other options besides what’s avaiable to them from the trickle down.

]]> By: Willem http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/05/10/arguments-disgust-reason-and-remedy/#comment-23838 Willem Sun, 11 May 2008 00:41:22 +0000 http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/05/10/arguments-disgust-reason-and-remedy/#comment-23838 Oh god, yes. I worried about posting this for exactly that reason: this directly follows from the <a href="http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/05/10/403/" rel="nofollow">"Mr. Yuk" post</a>, which delineates the three kinds of people, and how to treat them, according to my current confidence. Although I may indeed change my mind. I feel some other layer brewing here... In any case, as far as the "people in search of an argument about what makes a good life", I would feel good about making two useful categories out of those people: those who search for an argument because they would rather talk than change, and those who search for an argument because they desperately want someone to give them permission to live a life worth living. :) Oh god, yes.

I worried about posting this for exactly that reason: this directly follows from the “Mr. Yuk” post, which delineates the three kinds of people, and how to treat them, according to my current confidence.

Although I may indeed change my mind. I feel some other layer brewing here…

In any case, as far as the “people in search of an argument about what makes a good life”, I would feel good about making two useful categories out of those people: those who search for an argument because they would rather talk than change, and those who search for an argument because they desperately want someone to give them permission to live a life worth living.

:)

]]> By: Jason Godesky http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/05/10/arguments-disgust-reason-and-remedy/#comment-23837 Jason Godesky Sun, 11 May 2008 00:05:57 +0000 http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/05/10/arguments-disgust-reason-and-remedy/#comment-23837 I think the key, though, comes when you say, "Once you’ve exposed a life-denying choice for all to see." Have we done that? Has everyone seen that? I can tell you now, if you had simply acted with disgust and tried to shame me back in my good Catholic days, when I felt I had seen no such exposure, I would not have responded well. That would not shame me to reject that life-denying choice; it would convince me that rewilding only matters to stuck-up jerks. I agree there comes a time for this, but I know plenty of people who still have made their choices primarily out of ignorance, rather than simply refusing to accept the intense vitality of the world. I think the key, though, comes when you say, “Once you’ve exposed a life-denying choice for all to see.” Have we done that? Has everyone seen that? I can tell you now, if you had simply acted with disgust and tried to shame me back in my good Catholic days, when I felt I had seen no such exposure, I would not have responded well. That would not shame me to reject that life-denying choice; it would convince me that rewilding only matters to stuck-up jerks.

I agree there comes a time for this, but I know plenty of people who still have made their choices primarily out of ignorance, rather than simply refusing to accept the intense vitality of the world.

]]> By: Willem http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/05/10/arguments-disgust-reason-and-remedy/#comment-23836 Willem Sat, 10 May 2008 23:13:43 +0000 http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/05/10/arguments-disgust-reason-and-remedy/#comment-23836 Haha. Thanks Billy. So true, to all of that. :) Haha. Thanks Billy. So true, to all of that. :)

]]> By: Billy Metcalf http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/05/10/arguments-disgust-reason-and-remedy/#comment-23833 Billy Metcalf Sat, 10 May 2008 21:43:29 +0000 http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/05/10/arguments-disgust-reason-and-remedy/#comment-23833 "If you live a good life, people in search of a good life will flock to it. If you argue for a good life, people in search of an argument about what makes a good life will flock to it." OOOHH Willem, I think you are shedding the civilized mind, whole layers at a time recently. Something that happens to my wife and me fairly often actually is people will approach us and say, "I don't know what it is, but you seem to have something that I want." It sure ain't a fancy house or expensive clothes or a sporty car. “If you live a good life, people in search of a good life will flock to it. If you argue for a good life, people in search of an argument about what makes a good life will flock to it.”

OOOHH Willem, I think you are shedding the civilized mind, whole layers at a time recently.
Something that happens to my wife and me fairly often actually is people will approach us and say, “I don’t know what it is, but you seem to have something that I want.”
It sure ain’t a fancy house or expensive clothes or a sporty car.

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