Comments on: A World of Shape and Texture: American Sign Language and Navajo http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/07/30/a-world-of-shape-and-texture-american-sign-language-and-navajo/ Revitalizing Riddles, Mythic Story, Family, Village and Land. Fri, 10 Feb 2012 19:29:52 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.2 By: Willem http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/07/30/a-world-of-shape-and-texture-american-sign-language-and-navajo/#comment-24055 Willem Tue, 05 Aug 2008 21:43:28 +0000 http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/07/30/a-world-of-shape-and-texture-american-sign-language-and-navajo/#comment-24055 Of course this renders all my speculation about Chinese and Japanese "object presentation" rather curious, if not silly. Hmm. Two cultures with highly rigid class systems, as well as extant animist traditions. What an enigma! Of course this renders all my speculation about Chinese and Japanese “object presentation” rather curious, if not silly.

Hmm. Two cultures with highly rigid class systems, as well as extant animist traditions. What an enigma!

]]> By: Willem http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/07/30/a-world-of-shape-and-texture-american-sign-language-and-navajo/#comment-24054 Willem Tue, 05 Aug 2008 21:42:03 +0000 http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/07/30/a-world-of-shape-and-texture-american-sign-language-and-navajo/#comment-24054 Criminy! I just had a revelation about all this. First of all, of course measure words come later in Chinese linguistic history; they don't act as classifiers, but "formers of formless categories". Cattle means "the formless substance that we eat", and two head of cattle means "two individually bounded units of such". Abstracted formless nouns, definitely seem to accompany complexifying civilization. Which really disgusts me. Measures, as far as I can tell, count and quantify abstracted substance, rather than affirming its personhood. I say we abandon formless nouns to begin with; water (a pint of), meat (a package of), air (a puff of), etc. This of course could include Time and Space as well. Criminy! I just had a revelation about all this. First of all, of course measure words come later in Chinese linguistic history; they don’t act as classifiers, but “formers of formless categories”. Cattle means “the formless substance that we eat”, and two head of cattle means “two individually bounded units of such”. Abstracted formless nouns, definitely seem to accompany complexifying civilization.

Which really disgusts me. Measures, as far as I can tell, count and quantify abstracted substance, rather than affirming its personhood.

I say we abandon formless nouns to begin with; water (a pint of), meat (a package of), air (a puff of), etc. This of course could include Time and Space as well.

]]> By: Willem http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/07/30/a-world-of-shape-and-texture-american-sign-language-and-navajo/#comment-24051 Willem Mon, 04 Aug 2008 18:25:12 +0000 http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/07/30/a-world-of-shape-and-texture-american-sign-language-and-navajo/#comment-24051 Jonathan- Thanks for the added info! Hmm. Food for thought. Jonathan-
Thanks for the added info! Hmm. Food for thought.

]]> By: Jonathan Walton http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/07/30/a-world-of-shape-and-texture-american-sign-language-and-navajo/#comment-24045 Jonathan Walton Sat, 02 Aug 2008 22:41:40 +0000 http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/07/30/a-world-of-shape-and-texture-american-sign-language-and-navajo/#comment-24045 Wikipedia has a pretty good list of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_measure_word" rel="nofollow">measure words in Chinese</a>, if you want to compare. Note, however, that contemporary measure words are directly tied to specific words. Except in a few cases where multiple different measure words might be appropriate, generally the speaker does not have a choice of which measure word to use. It's very much like "five head of cattle." If you said "a pod of cattle" or "a murder of cattle," people would assume it's either 1) overwrought poetry, or 2) wrong. Measure words are, as far as I know, a relatively recent (i.e. still very ancient) addition to Chinese, and are not really present in classical Chinese. Wikipedia has a pretty good list of measure words in Chinese, if you want to compare. Note, however, that contemporary measure words are directly tied to specific words. Except in a few cases where multiple different measure words might be appropriate, generally the speaker does not have a choice of which measure word to use. It’s very much like “five head of cattle.” If you said “a pod of cattle” or “a murder of cattle,” people would assume it’s either 1) overwrought poetry, or 2) wrong.

Measure words are, as far as I know, a relatively recent (i.e. still very ancient) addition to Chinese, and are not really present in classical Chinese.

]]> By: Vicky http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/07/30/a-world-of-shape-and-texture-american-sign-language-and-navajo/#comment-24044 Vicky Sat, 02 Aug 2008 18:24:12 +0000 http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/07/30/a-world-of-shape-and-texture-american-sign-language-and-navajo/#comment-24044 Yes, definitely! Yes, definitely!

]]> By: Willem http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/07/30/a-world-of-shape-and-texture-american-sign-language-and-navajo/#comment-24039 Willem Fri, 01 Aug 2008 18:45:31 +0000 http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/07/30/a-world-of-shape-and-texture-american-sign-language-and-navajo/#comment-24039 Intriguing! Maybe squirrels need something more petite. "I saw three squeaks of squirrels". :) I hadn't thought about the implications for e-primitive...that presents some interesting options. So, a speaker may want to say something that captures the idea, "I saw three counts of ongoing squirrelling", essentially, in the spirit of verbing the noun. "Three head of squirrel" works pretty well. Especially when you think of ways we use "squirrel" as a verb; to squirrel away goodies, etc. Maybe we need to add this to the e-primitive sandbox on Rewild.info? Intriguing! Maybe squirrels need something more petite. “I saw three squeaks of squirrels”. :)

I hadn’t thought about the implications for e-primitive…that presents some interesting options. So, a speaker may want to say something that captures the idea, “I saw three counts of ongoing squirrelling”, essentially, in the spirit of verbing the noun. “Three head of squirrel” works pretty well. Especially when you think of ways we use “squirrel” as a verb; to squirrel away goodies, etc. Maybe we need to add this to the e-primitive sandbox on Rewild.info?

]]> By: Vicky http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/07/30/a-world-of-shape-and-texture-american-sign-language-and-navajo/#comment-24038 Vicky Fri, 01 Aug 2008 04:54:05 +0000 http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/07/30/a-world-of-shape-and-texture-american-sign-language-and-navajo/#comment-24038 I wouldn't consider myself anywhere near expert on Asian cultures, but that sounds reasonable. They seem to have a more hands-on way of looking at things than we Westerners do. Do you see any potential for expanding our use of classifiers in English (or e-primitive)? It seems to me that using classifiers makes nouns less specific, thereby weakening them. For instance, in English, it doesn't make sense to say "a grass". Why? Because the word grass means the category of grass. The same thing with "cattle", although no one would ever say "one head of cattle" since we can use the handy word "cow" instead. But what if you could say, "I saw three head of squirrels at the park today." It sounds funny, but I think it makes sense. I wouldn’t consider myself anywhere near expert on Asian cultures, but that sounds reasonable. They seem to have a more hands-on way of looking at things than we Westerners do.

Do you see any potential for expanding our use of classifiers in English (or e-primitive)? It seems to me that using classifiers makes nouns less specific, thereby weakening them. For instance, in English, it doesn’t make sense to say “a grass”. Why? Because the word grass means the category of grass. The same thing with “cattle”, although no one would ever say “one head of cattle” since we can use the handy word “cow” instead. But what if you could say, “I saw three head of squirrels at the park today.” It sounds funny, but I think it makes sense.

]]> By: Willem http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/07/30/a-world-of-shape-and-texture-american-sign-language-and-navajo/#comment-24037 Willem Thu, 31 Jul 2008 21:18:00 +0000 http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/07/30/a-world-of-shape-and-texture-american-sign-language-and-navajo/#comment-24037 Tom- I believe Tony has a plan to have her support TNW programs, so hopefully she will provide ASL training for immersion program students! In any case, she does teach a weekly class too. Vicky- I wonder if this explains the cultural sensitivity Japanese seem to have to design, crafted objects and presentation; Chinese too. And both these cultures have extant animist traditions (Shinto and Taoism). Thanks for the observations! Tom-
I believe Tony has a plan to have her support TNW programs, so hopefully she will provide ASL training for immersion program students! In any case, she does teach a weekly class too.

Vicky-
I wonder if this explains the cultural sensitivity Japanese seem to have to design, crafted objects and presentation; Chinese too. And both these cultures have extant animist traditions (Shinto and Taoism). Thanks for the observations!

]]> By: Vicky http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/07/30/a-world-of-shape-and-texture-american-sign-language-and-navajo/#comment-24036 Vicky Thu, 31 Jul 2008 18:16:10 +0000 http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/07/30/a-world-of-shape-and-texture-american-sign-language-and-navajo/#comment-24036 Chinese and Japanese use classifiers as well. Stephen Pinker talks about Chinese classifiers in his book "Words and Rules". "They have classifiers for people, animals, flat things, long flexible things, small things, one of a pair and so on." The classifier "ge" is the one you use if the object doesn't fit into the available categories; like miscellaneous in English. Pinker also points out we sometimes use in English as well, "A blade of grass (not a grass), a piece of fruit, a strand of hair, a slice of bread, a stick of wood, a sheet of paper, and thirty head of cattle." Chinese and Japanese use classifiers as well. Stephen Pinker talks about Chinese classifiers in his book “Words and Rules”. “They have classifiers for people, animals, flat things, long flexible things, small things, one of a pair and so on.” The classifier “ge” is the one you use if the object doesn’t fit into the available categories; like miscellaneous in English.

Pinker also points out we sometimes use in English as well, “A blade of grass (not a grass), a piece of fruit, a strand of hair, a slice of bread, a stick of wood, a sheet of paper, and thirty head of cattle.”

]]> By: tom campbell http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/07/30/a-world-of-shape-and-texture-american-sign-language-and-navajo/#comment-24035 tom campbell Thu, 31 Jul 2008 01:04:35 +0000 http://www.mythic-cartography.org/2008/07/30/a-world-of-shape-and-texture-american-sign-language-and-navajo/#comment-24035 does your friend RaVen regularly teach a class? if so, i'd like to join once i get to portland. does your friend RaVen regularly teach a class? if so, i’d like to join once i get to portland.

]]>